User talk:Auron of Neon
Grr... What's the deal with YAV? Can you explain, in your own words, how Warwick's actions/comments have violated YAV? I have the same issue with what s/he/they are doing, but I really don't see any violation of the YAV policy in particular. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 09:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC) :Nor do I understand what the constant occupation with YAV is.. — Warw/Wick 09:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC) ::General asshattery. You aren't valuable if people ignore what you say. Ignoring what others say because one disagrees with it is even worse than simply ignoring it. Consensus isn't reached by putting people on your ignore list, it's reached by discussion and debate. -Auroñ 10:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC) :::General asshattery doesn't break YAV. YAV is specifically targeted at one form of asshattery -- that of self-deprecation to appear as a victim/mytre. If I and Entropy ever get into an argument, and I say "screw you, I've been here way longer than you are" or if she says "screw you, I'm a Bcrat and you are just a lowly sysop", then neither of us are breaking YAV. We are just inappropriately pulling our rank/experience to trump the other in an argument. What breaks YAV are things like "I'm just a lowly sysop, you are the Bcrat, so yeah, whatever you say, you know everything". A user can only break YAV if the user places him/herself at lower value. Placing others at lower value is just being a jerk, it doesn't break YAV. At least not the way the spirit of the policy was originally intended for. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 10:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC) ::::Er... I was always under the impression the policy existed mainly to empower newer users, as you said, but also to make sure older users didn't pull some kind of BS trump card like number of edits or time on the wiki. That's just how I always interpreted it. -Auroñ 10:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC) :::::Hm, I would agree that the policy does discourage older/higher-ranked users to pull some trump on newer users, so I can understand if you disagree with my particular examples. Though if we look back to the original point, I would argue what Warwick was doing still doesn't qualify as breaking YAV even under the broader interpretation you used above. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 11:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC) ::::::Fair point. Asshattery is still my main concern with that user, and if bad enough, can be a bannable offense. -Auroñ 11:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC) :::::::That's fair. In this discussion I'm just concerned by the accusation of breaking YAV. You are the second person to accuse Warwick of that in a very short span of time, so I want to sort that particular issue out. Moving on to the topic of Warwick's behavior, I would advice to take into account that some user's message to Warwick is getting near/to the point of non-productive trolling and flaming, and so it might be more constructive/productive to be a bit softer in responding to Warwick's lashbacks. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 11:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC) ::::::::I'm not going to ban soon, but I haven't seen any real improvement in behavior. This last case wasn't the only one to concern me, but it's the only one I can easily find (spent about an hour trying to sort through archives; a pretty impossible task). I'll give it time. If, down the road, I feel a ban is still necessary, I don't want it to come as a huge surprise to anyone. So I left a note. -Auroñ 11:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC) :::::::::Fyi, Auron, its pretty easy to sort through archives. I only have 37 of them. May seem like a lot, but it takes about 5 mins to sort through them all. As another note, you wouldn't see much behaviour improvment, since you're a) not active here and b), like everyone else, seem bent on trying to find the bad things about me. — Warw/Wick 11:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::Auron may not be active here, but that's mainly because you don't see him out there every day in RC. He has...other ways of staying informed, and (like many users) when he is active, tends to spend that time observing rather than doing. I would also warn against making such statements as your last, since you can see a bit above that "self-deprecation to appear as a victim/martyr" is exactly what the confusing YAV is about. Without taking a blaming tone, you don't help the "victim" status by saying such things, at least in that tone. (whether they are true or not is irrelevant) (T/ ) 12:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::Get over yourself, Warwick. I don't know you. I don't hate you, I don't like you, and I wouldn't have anything to do with you if you weren't such a potential danger to the wiki. The most I've ever done with you is a single dungeon in EotN, and I don't even remember much from that. You might want to feel important and all that by declaring it you vs the world, but that simply isn't the case. As Entropy said... "When I agree with someone, it's not because I like them personally. When I disagree with someone, it's not because I hold a grudge against them. I just think they are right or wrong, and that's that." You can try to turn this into a martyr game, but beware; Karlos tried to do that, too, and I don't see him around anymore. ::::::::::False assumptions and misinformation about my personality aside, my like or dislike of you has no bearing on my perception. I am sufficiently in control of my emotions (if there were any to begin with, seeing as I still don't care enough to be driven to anger or joy) to ensure they don't make my decisions for me. If your behavior was improving, I would admit it; if I disliked you, I would still, begrudgingly, admit it. ::::::::::I've been watching (and listening, as Entropy has hinted) all along, hence my popping on to ban vandals and delete mass spam pages. I haven't watched GWiki as religiously as I have GWW, but I haven't been simply gone. No, the reason I haven't noticed your behavior improve is because, quite frankly, it hasn't. Stop trying to blame everything except yourself. -Auroñ 12:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::Evidently you havn't been paying much attention. I've muched changed since I joined GuildWiki with my brother. — Warw/Wick 12:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::::Um...Auron is specifically referring to the time from when you "split" and became "May", to now. It's impossible to make a fair comparison if you bring the whole brother issue up again. And even people who are really active here wouldn't have known you from that far back anyways, except for those like Fire Tock (Spam King?) who knew both persons. (T/ ) 12:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::::Yes, I suppose you make a point there Entropy. Fire only knew my brother, tbh. Shadow knew both of us. And auron, here are some edit statistics Auron of Neon Total 3,412 100% (Main) 843 24.71% Talk 479 14.04% User 399 11.69% User talk 1,203 35.26% GuildWiki 48 1.41% GuildWiki talk 199 5.83% Image 181 5.3% Image talk 24 0.7% MediaWiki 1 0.03% MediaWiki talk 1 0.03% Template 15 0.44% Template talk 5 0.15% Category 5 0.15% Category talk 9 0.26% Warwick Total 6,855 100% (Main) 1,043 15.22% Talk 668 9.74% User 1,188 17.33% User talk 2,841 41.44% GuildWiki 307 4.48% GuildWiki talk 215 3.14% Image 308 4.49% Image talk 135 1.97% MediaWiki talk 12 0.18% Template 71 1.04% Template talk 34 0.5% Category 14 0.2% Category talk 19 0.28% :No, much as it looks, Im not making an issue of the amounts of edits you have. What I'm saying is that you say I'm focused on Userspace edits. I have more userspace edits than you, sure, but the statistics of mine say that basically I have more Mainspace/talk and such than you. I'm not saying you're not a great contributor, I'm just saying- Think about yourself before you say things like that. Unless, ofc, I misinterpruted you. In which case I apologise. — Warw/Wick 22:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC) :GW:YAV isn't enforcable. No body is going to ban a newbie for self-deprecating. The policy says "you have the same responsibility to respect our traditions and guiding principles, just like everybody else", and even that isn't enforced. It's an etiquette policy, is about being kind with yourself and others, and is probably the policy that best represents the spirit of the GuildWiki community, and that's why we should do the hard work of taking good care of it, despite the fact that it's not enforcable. Anything else about it, I already said it. And about Auron, I somehow had the impression that he was watching while I argued (or attempted to) with May (I might be crazy or paranoid), so I'd like thank him for letting it be. He was wise enough to realize it wasn't the right situation to get in bitchslapping Auron-style. It wouldn't had helped considering May's way of viewing things. So, thanks Auron. reanor 22:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC) ::Auron of Neon ::*(Main) 843 24.71% ::*Talk 479 14.04% ::*User 399 11.69% ::*User talk 1,203 35.26% ::Warwick ::*(Main) 1,043 15.22% ::*Talk 668 9.74% ::*User 1,188 17.33% ::*User talk 2,841 41.44% ::Imo, the proportions often give a better idea of what someone's focus in contribs is, instead of the counts. On a side note, the only time I've ever accused anyone of violating YAV was when eloc accepted an RfA nomination on PvX and then opposed himself XD I think I banned him for three seconds, or something ^_^ But yea, YAV isn't really an enforceable policy like NPA or 1RV. I suppose you could ban people for repeatedly being self-deprecating, but that would just kinda reinforce their low opinion of themselves >.> And if someone's repeatedly belittling others, that would really fall more under NPA or just "being a jerk". ¬ Wizårdbõÿ777(talk) 03:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC) :So your edit count tells me what, exactly? That your attitude is anything more than piss poor? If anything, your insistence on diverting blame from yourself just tells me you're every bit as egotistical as when I first saw you. :Don't pull an Eloc. He was probably the only other user I've seen that placed even the slightest importance in edit counts (although I'd have to say you aren't as obsessive, unless you are secretly infatuated with having the most linked userpage on the wiki). :I will have to express my amusement at you using edit counts in your favor, though, when on your last real (or first real, according to you) RfA, you claimed that you weren't accountable for all those edits. And yet here you are claiming all of them as your own. Pick a story and stick to it tbh, lest people stop assuming good faith and start calling you a liar. -Auroñ 03:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC) ::Look at the actual statistics. The percents arn't what im talking about. Sure, everyone has a lot of usertalk edits, because there is less and less actual stuff to do on GuildWiki nowdays, since for the most part its done. ::I myself am rather amused at the fact that you seem to be still being ignorant, or you just seem to not understand what I'm saying. As I said on the RfA, most of my brothers contributions were User talk edits, apart from a few(?) talkpage edits and a few dotted around. My point is that you have the lesser amount of useful edits. ::Yeah, I'm egotastical, but then again, thats human nature, isn't it? Its one of those reasons why I personally hate humans and being one. Bleh, its a flaw of humanity. Everyone tries to get some self importance. ::I'm hardly diverting blame from myself. I'm trying to make you stop being hypocritical, unless I misunderstood what you said on my archive. My attitude is, fyi, much different from what it was when I started on the wiki. Yeah, sure not much change has come in the last 2 months~ish, but not much noticable will happen in that sort of time. So bleh. — Warw/Wick 05:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC) :::That's nice. Since you're dipping into terrible logic ("I'm hardly diverting blame from myself" following a section blaming your brother, outside of an entire RfA where you blamed all the bad edits on him and claimed good edits for yourself), I'll just be painfully clear. Stop being a dick or you'll get banned. Nobody appreciates your attitude problem. This isn't GWW; you can't wikilawyer out of it. This is your last warning. -Auroñ 07:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC) ::::Is that a threat, Auron? Because I hardly think that you have any logic behind a reason to ban me. Nobody appreciates your attitude problems, and just face it- you're childish and immature; on an Equal to; or probably Greater Than scale to me. If anything, its you thats being a dick. Yes, your reasoning on my talkpage was alright enough, but you're letting yourself go over here. Face it, if you continue this argument you'll just be making yourself look childish and immature. If you block me, go block yourself as well. We're both continuing this argument. — Warw/Wick 07:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC) ::::::Actually, I'm not even sure why we're so set against each other anymore. I replied to a PM from you where you logged off almost immediately afterwards. And since then, you've been acting pretty oddly towards me, considering that I thought what we both said was a joke. After you put a note on my talkpage as an anon, I thought that somehow I'd annoyed you, but come on, one comment gives you reason to thoughroughly hate me? — Warw/Wick 07:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC) :::::::I'll have to assume you haven't read a single word I've ever said (since you still think disagreeing with someone means hating them, and you pretty much ignored half my post here), so I won't bother being verbose. The argument's over. Your attitude is unacceptable for a wiki environment. Clean it up or suffer the consequences. That isn't a threat. It's the truth. -Auroñ 06:07, 13 April 2008 (EDT) ::::::::Oh no, I've read through that several times. You've ranted at me a lot, and are ignoring me on Guild Wars. Yes, the argument is over. I don't need to clean up my act. And btw, that is a threat. Regardless of whether or not its the truth. And okay, Ill answer what you said on my talk. Regarding the spam- To be fair to me, at least 10 of those archives were tock, 3 of them were Bored, 4 were RT and 3 were me. The rest of them is actually pretty much decent discussion. I move my page when I archive because if I were to sectionally remove comments, I'd end up removing all of them or none of them- Which is the point in general. I like to tell people when I'm going to sleep so that they know I'm not ignoring them if they leave a message on my talkpage. — Warw/Wick 10:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC) :::::::::Except... nobody cares? More importantly, this is a wiki. If someone leaves a message on your wiki talk page, they aren't expecting a response within the hour, they're expecting a response within the next day or so. If anyone expects you to respond immediately, they flat-out suck at wikis. :::::::::I'm not ignoring you on Guild Wars. I'm just never on it. I still have AIM, MSN, and email as fairly open options - or steam if you prefer. Contacting me isn't that hard. :::::::::I don't care how much spam you get, I'm just saying you should put it in a separate archive from everything that is of import. GuildWiki related stuff, content related stuff, in-game related stuff, IRL spam, random editing-because-we're-bored-and-haven't-figured-out-how-to-use-instant-messengers spam... if you separate them, all the content will still be there, but it won't be such a nightmare to sort through. :::::::::The entire point of archiving talk pages is to have information easily findable later. Easily being the key word. If the archives aren't easy to sort through, you might as well just be wiping the information off your talk page every time; at least then we could sort through the history and diff what we want to see. Currently, you move your talk page every three days (or more frequently, if you're afraid of carrying on a discussion to its end), so diffing revisions is pretty much impossible - and using history to find specific edits is difficult, because it requires opening a separate archive (a huge downside of "moving" talk pages to archive pages). If you want to keep the spam, learn to organize your archive. :::::::::Lastly... yes, you do in fact need to clean up your act. I'm blocking you for a day for everything we've discussed (with the exception of archiving etiquette; I don't think that's a blockable offense). Keep in mind that the wiki's goal and purpose is to document the game; anything that detracts from that is a disruption, and should be avoided. -Auroñ 10:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::Bah, Auron, that was uncalled for. When I'm unanoned, I'm calling for your resignition. You had NO RIGHT to block me. Okay, you had the rights when you were given the power, but you had no call for it. Basically, you just banned me for what you call "Threatening Behaviour/Harassment" and which is what I call "Responding on somones talkpage". If anything, gtfo and ban yourself. --May @May GW:NPA RT | Talk 10:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC) :I'm already banned. — Warw/Wick ::You're going to ask me to resign? Uh... good luck with that. You can ask Entropy to demote me, but I don't think that'd work either. -Auroñ 10:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC) Auron, the next time you ban, please pick a reason that is more defensible. I would have to disagree with the ban if this talk page (up to the ban) plus past general behavior is what you call "Threatening Behaviour/Harassment". -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 13:00, 13 April 2008 (EDT) Hey. Read GW:ADMIN lately? "Sysops can ban anyone they want for absolutely no reason, should they deem it necessary." Paraphrased, yes, but (1) Auron did not abuse his powers and (2) calling for his resignation is...stupid. Even if I didn't agree with Auron; even if I didn't consider him a friend; even if I was arguing May's side of this issue. As bureaucrat, I see no reason for him to be demoted for something like this. Perhaps as PanSola says, he should be reprimanded for a stupid block message. I've talked to him privately and I know he could have explained his reasoning better. Nevertheless, let's take an objective stance: the only time we've ever had a demotion was when Skuld was seriously fucking up everything. And the only resignation was when Marco was told by just about everyone that his conduct was unacceptable for an admin. I am seeing neither such circumstance repeated here. All I'll say is that Auron is Auron. That's not a defense or a preferential treatment, but I think you knew what you were asking for by "continuing the argument". This really ought to have taken place off the wiki. (T/ ) 22:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC) :I said it, Auron and May arguing was a bad idea. reanor 03:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC) Hi I don't think I've ever talked on your talk page so; Hi! Lost-Blue 03:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC) :That was random RT | Talk 10:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC) ::Ketchup on my mouse! <--- no that was wait.... *looks at your name* >< Lost-Blue 17:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC) :::Auron is serious business. [[User:GW-Misfate|'Misfate']] 17:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC) Let me clarify Warwick was not banned entirely for his/her actions on this talk page. S/he was largely banned for the actions that were discussed here, but performed elsewhere. I'm a firm believer that, no matter how angry people get, they should be able to have a discussion without fear of NPA or whatnot - they should try to stay away from personal attacks, but in heated debates, that's not always possible. The actual block came as a result of refusal to listen to an admin. I'm not here to have a pissing contest, I'm here to make sure Warwick doesn't keep making this a shitty, unfriendly place. Warwick thinks that I'm on some personal vendetta driven by intense dislike, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I piss off plenty of people. Most of them, at least, recognize it for what it is; stating the truth. Or at least, the truth from my perspective; but tbh, I'm usually right, so it's pretty much the same thing. I don't hate him/her. I don't hate most people I communicate with. I made the mistake of actually hating a user once (it was on this wiki, too... a long time ago), and vowed never to give a fuck again, as it just made me less objective. Since then I've kept my feelings out of wiki discussions, and have been amazingly fair in my discussions/debates. When I went to make the block, I was trying to think what I could use as the block reason. I checked the mediawiki options and saw "Intimidating behavior/harassment," which was quite an amazing fit for the behavior I witnessed and wanted to discourage. It wasn't inaccurate in the least, and I could very well defend it; is this not intimidating behavior? Is this not harassment bordering on personal attacks? I could have been more descriptive and added, in the "Other/additional reason" section, something along the lines of general asshattery - but I didn't feel that necessary, because the mediawiki option was quite relevant. Lastly, Randomtime, I vehemently disagree with your shortening of the block; for two reasons. One, Gem already blocked the user for six hours for being an asshat; you don't turn around and ban them for shorter than that, ever - ban lengths go up, not down, especially for the same crime. Two, the user was in full awareness of said asshattery and knew the consequences of continued asshattery; yet s/he did it anyway. That doesn't warrant a 2 hour ban, that warrants a day at least. If you disagree with the block, discuss it with me before revoking it. Thanks. -Auroñ 20:15, 13 April 2008 (EDT) :Auron is serious business. Wall of text. [[User:GW-Misfate|'Misfate']] 00:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC) ouch so I have a tin of altoids ive been gnawing on and I forgot taht I also had an old tin full of thumbtacks in it. I reached for the wrong one and disaster almost ensued. I just thought I'd bring this story in here to lighten things up. Most people are amused when bad things happen to me. —[[User:JediRogue|'♥Jedi♥Rogue♥']] 00:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC) :Boxes of tacks > jews mirite -Auroñ 00:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC) ::ur fat. —[[User:JediRogue|'♥Jedi♥Rogue♥']] 00:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC) :::Nazi! ¬ Wizårdbõÿ777(talk) 02:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC) O i c u has new signature. But I am slow. — Nova — ( ) 15:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Sup I've been rather AWOL from GW for some time now. I haven't even been gaming at all. I still check the updates and everything tho lol, I like to see where the game is heading etc. It just doesn't grab me like it used to. It still remains my favourite game of all time though (up there with ES:IV OblIVion anyway). I've now got time in my life to pursue other things, like sleeping! Right now I'm madly downloading X-Men comics and reading them :-) Hope everything is well for you. L :Yeah, Guild Wars isn't my top game either. I don't really have one atm, still just wandering from game to game. Still tooling around on free WoW servers and picking up random DS games (most recent was Dungeon Explorer, which is a pretty nice dungeon-crawler). :I dunno, ANet gave up on Guild Wars. In a game balanced so precariously on balance, the company basically has to spend all their time tweaking; if they're working on a huge project like GW2, the original game goes to hell in a handbasket. Which is pretty much what happened... ursan, consumables, etc, to keep the terrible players playing until gw2 release. Or at least gw2 beta. Not a fun game anymore. -Auron 03:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC) ::I c u dropped the coolness from ur sig. — Nova — ( ) 22:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC) Here is a question? Why do you want to be the bcrat of a wiki that you think is a childish playground and almost dead? --''Shadowphoenix'' 21:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC) :The reasons DE ran for bureaucrat on GWW I imagine. Change works better from the top down. Lord of all tyria 21:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC) ::For reasons best known only to me, at the moment. I'd make them public, but then they'd be misconstrued to no end until they became yet another fallacious reason to bastardize me. -Auron 03:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::Since you don't trust us, I see no reason why we should trust you. 04:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::I was thinking the same thing. Why do you think they would be misconstrued? If your intentions truly are for the betterment of the wiki, then I would think laying them out and explaining them now, before you are promoted, would be much better in the long run than simply letting them be made apparent by your bcratic actions. Also, concealing one's intentions because they might decrease one's chances of being appointed to a certain position is something that politicians do, isn't it? Based on your previous comment about politicians, I'd think you'd despise that kind of action. —Dr Ishmael 04:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::There's a difference between hiding my actions because they're malicious and hiding them because I don't want them, however positive, to be used as fuel by people who can't tell the difference. :::::I think they would be misconstrued because I've been on this wiki for two years; I know how people think. Most of them can't even comprehend the bureaucrat role to begin with (as is obvious by their comments on entropy's userspace page), so how the hell are they going to understand motive for running? -Auron 08:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::And more to the point, why has this been raised on aurons talkpage rather than entropys userspace page designed for the purpose of such thigns? I think that, considering the nature of that debate, perhaps we should atleast try to contain it on the page which was designed for it, lest unneccesary wiki-drama results, no?-- - (Talk/ ) 09:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::Goodness, is the defender of talk page freedom now stepping in on the side of the establishment? I would hope Auron can manage his own talk page. 09:06, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::haha, i actually did consider the irony before posting, but considering i have become somewhat involved in this whole bueraucrat thing now i was merely trying to prevent it from affecting things other than the "election" itself. But you make a fair point that that was fairly hypocritcal of me, considering my previous stance, *backs down*-- - (Talk/ ) 09:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::On a less snarky note, Entropy's page wasn't really designed for people to explain why they'd like to be bureaucrats, and that's what phoenix asked, so it's understandable that she'd raise it in a different area. 09:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC) Ok ok guys, here's my motivation; I want bcrat on all three wikis. Yeah... that's the ticket. -Auron 09:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :You make me love you more and more. —[[User:JediRogue|'♥Jedi♥Rogue♥']] 16:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::Not wanting to be hypocritical in 3 ways at once (or is it 4?) by contradicting several of my previous statements merely in the act of posting this, but, if you'd responded to my opposition to your Bcrat standing with the same refutation you just gave Ishmael i would have withdrawn my opposition immediately and possibly even considered going as far to vote support (although your time of absence/inactivity on the wiki has coincided with my most of my activity so it has been difficult for me to make objective judgement on your contribs and such like, whereas i have been able to observe the actions of the other candidates in a more, er, 'firsthand' way). It was a well written and objective argument without the previously shown, er, 'abrasiveness' - (though i feel "Your input means more to me (and most likely to Entropy as well) than most others'" was perhaps a little negative in its implications) - which as Ishmael said, shows 'diplomatic' skill. I am considering withdrawing my opposition anyway now, regardless of the fact that said refutation was not aimed at me, though i think it effectively responds to most of my comments. Not that i mean to imply there is any great importance attatched to my own opinion expressed in this "election", but still, less opposition is always good :) I just wanted to point out that it would have been possible to avoid all of this, most of which was based on my experience of your contribs which, for reasons previously stated, was limited to your responses to critcism on the talkpage of the bueraucrat election and the quote brought up by shadowphoenix, because, as previously stated, i had nothing else as a grounds on which to make judgement.-- - (Talk/ ) 18:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::I can be diplomatic when I want to be. Most of the time, however, I don't care enough. It's much more fun to be an ass; people's reactions alone makes it worth my time. :::Any bureaucratic duties/queries would, of course, entail diplomacy. I even portray diplomacy as a sysop... usually. As a user, commenting on any topic, I'll rarely spend the time and energy. That includes userspace opinion boards - don't expect me to put on a show on entropy's bcrat page, it ain't gonna happen. :::As you're probably aware, I don't care about public opinion. I don't "act" to impress anyone. That includes being a carebear simply to make people feel warm and fuzzy. That's not my job here. If they think otherwise, that's fine; I respect their opinion, as wrong as it is :) -Auron 19:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::"people's reactions alone makes it worth my time." Not when it almost leads to me getting banned, imo xD (though that may be considered a bonus, i guess :P)-- - (Talk/ ) 19:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::So let me get this straight. You want to be a bureaucrat for reasons you refuse to disclose, yet you "don't care enough" to do anything that might actually lead you to achieve that goal? 19:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::You mean acting like a carebear will make Entropy more likely to promote me? Highly doubtful. Remember; that page is a brainstorming session, not a vote. What the general userbase thinks doesn't matter in the least. -Auron 19:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::You clearly have a very low opinion of Entropy. I feel that she's not stupid enough to appoint an unpleasant, disreputable, half-assed candidate when it's clear that she'd be facing a mutiny if she did. 19:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::Actually, I think Auron would make a very good candidate for sysop. — Warw/Wick 19:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::A statement of fact is not a personal attack. You're unpleasant- you admit to enjoying fueling wiki drama and pissing off people. You have a poor reputation as an individual with a large ego and a bad attitude. Whether that's true or not, that's your reputation, which you yourself have created. And half-assed? Saying "I don't care enough to put effort into my posts" is pretty much the textbook definition. Now, unless you're planning to start a sysop feud, I would suggest we both take a little break from this bullshit, because frankly, I've had more than enough drama lately. 20:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::I really dont think it was wise to unban yourself.. :| — Warw/Wick 20:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::And why not? Let's take a look at GW:ADMIN. "Administrators can counteract other administrators, if they feel it prudent. An erroneous ban can be lifted. An erroneous delete can be restored. Typically, only a message on the talk page explaining the reason why such a countermeasure is prudent is expected in such a case. The "reverted" administrator is expected to oblige the revert, and should not reinstitute their action without discussing it with the "reverting" administrator." :I lifted an erroneous ban, as I felt it was prudent. I have also left a message on the talk page explaining etc. No problem, really. 20:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::After the current drama you've been involved in.. — Warw/Wick 20:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC) I have just read this entire talk page, top to bottom; and you know what at this point I would not even support you for sysop (as I would have b4 reading this talk page). You admitted that you just luv to stir up wiki drama and that alone is enough to demote you imo. I am just glad you are not my employee as you would not be for very long. I do not understand why someone who likes to see wiki drama persist wants to be an bcrat here. It seems to me you would prob. make a perfect bcrat on Dramatica but most certainly not here. Your bad attitude is not something that is needed here or anywhere else for that matter. Oh and I just wait for an ArbComm to come up at GWW so you can show ur true colors to everyone. Why? Because I know your opinion and obviously "not so neutral" attitude will get in the way. Auron, you have proven to me (and others) that you will never even try to change and you will never get my support now. When you openly admit that you like to create wiki drama and you luv to piss ppl off, then you have just told everyone that you have no place on the administrative team. Also about you banning Felix for asshattery, don't be hypocritical, your just as much an asshat as anyone else (not NPA he admits it, btw). So I feel that you are unfit for any admin position of any kind, anywhere. (don't worry, I am not gonna call this out at GWW; I let you go through your term there without any disturbance from me about you being a bcrat there). --''Shadowphoenix'' 21:31, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :Auron is epic win. Dont argue with him tbh. Arguing with him != good. Regardless of the situation, you shouldn't, because it'll just end up with MORE FRIKKIN' WIKIDRAMA. And I no longer like wikidrama. I am not going to be participating in this conversation anymore. — Warw/Wick 21:38, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :You're funny. -Auron 21:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC) AGF Proposal Ok, Entropy is away at the moment and you have a er, interesting approach to policy interpretation. Also, i suspect your talkpage may be fairly active for awhile so it seems a good place to bring this up. Recently, having looked at the failed state of GW:SCREENS, and entropy's suggestion that it could be merged with the existing AGF, I propsed an addition to the current state of AGF - here. I got one comment from MP47 before my edit was swallowed into the murky depths of RC, and i doubt anyone regularly goes looking through the talkpages of existing policies that have stood for ages. As such, to avoid total obscurity, posting on the talkpages of prominent sysops seems an idea. While this is largely shameless self promotion to gain feedback, I would also be interested in your personal opinion, as i am curious as to how your "Spirit not Word" approach to policies fits with the current state of AGF (especially in light of some recent bursts of anons adding obviousy incorrect information to articles and then leaving). I wonder if you feel that the current, er 'spirit' of AGF is sufficient to imply what users can use to resolve content disputes and wether any addition is necessary at all, and if so what form it should take. -- - (Talk/ ) 14:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC) Please just ignore him And when it's a perceived personal attack directed against you, it's best to let somebody else review and handle the situation. -20:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :I know. My personal feelings haven't clouded my judgment in this case; the user has had a history of poor behavior, and repeated it there. I used the next higher standard block length, and left a note on his talk page. I have not re-applied the block - warring with admin tools is never a good thing. I'll just wait until Entropy gets back and see what she has to say on the matter. I doubt she'll be happy, but I don't know for sure. -Auron 20:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::Also beware that you were using general asshattery as part of your ban rational, yet some of your own actions can be perceived as being an ass. If you are going to be an admin who bans other people using "general asshattery" as part of the reasons, then I think it is only fair for the community to expect you to not being an ass as an user yourself. You don't have to be a carebear, but if you enjoy being an ass, please don't factor general asshattery in your decision as to whether to ban other people (so the ban reason should've only been violation of NPA) . Thank you. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 20:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::Beware that fallacious logic, Pan. Felix's amount of asshattery is completely unrelated to my own - there is no mystical connection binding the two, nothing that prevents me from calling him on it. The ban reason box doesn't say "reason this user should be banned, compared to your own faults in a similar vein," it simply says "Reason." Thus, I put the reason for the block. -Auron 21:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::What Pan was saying is that you shouldn't be hypocritical in banning someone for a trait that you yourself brag about exhibiting: "It's much more fun to be an ass; people's reactions alone makes it worth my time." If you can ban Felix for the "general asshattery" he exhibited against you, then Pan (or any admin) could just as easily ban you for the "general asshattery" you exhibit against others. It doesn't matter whether you are acting as a bureaucrat, an admin, or a general user while "being an ass", it still reflects on you, much like Felix's off-wiki behavior reflected on him and, in connection with what happened on the wiki, earned him a 1-week ban. —Dr Ishmael 21:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::Or I could ban him for policy violation, and tack on the asshattery as an additional offense? Are you guys forgetting the NPA or what? -Auron 21:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::No, we're not forgetting the NPA, we never contested the ban itself. What Pan and I are contesting is your double standard - you revel in being an ass yourself, and yet you cite "general asshattery" as part of your reason for banning Felix. —Dr Ishmael 22:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::Tbh, AUron, you should have taken the high road and allowed another sysop to make the call as to whether or not to ban him (similar to the whole Galil NPA thing on GWW, if u recall) --''Shadowphoenix'' 22:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::No I didn't forget the NPA bit, please re-read my previous post's second-to-last sentence, especially the part in parenthesis. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 22:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::So I have to take it you missed my reply? I'm an ass. He's an ass. They are completely unrelated cases of asshattery. My being an ass does not reduce his being an ass. You could see it as hypocritical (and, indeed, it probably is), but it would be an outright fallacy to claim that I can't call him an ass because I'm one myself. :::::::And shadowphoenix; don't post on my talk page unless it's something pressing. I know your views; you've repeated them ad nauseam. I've no interest in hearing them for the umpteenth time. -Auron 22:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::The issues here is whether we should impose asshattery as a standard for banning people, which affects whether you should be banned for general asshattery (and I hope the answer is "No"). Yes they are un-related cases of asshattery, in much the same way Admin K's revert war on one article is unrelated to Joe Wiki User's breaking 1RV on a separate article on a separate occasion. I personally would politely ask them to stop reverting instead of banning them out right, but if Admin K bans violation of 1RV on sight yet himself commits the violation of 1RV on unrelated occasions, I'' would have a big problem with that. Admin K can point out JoeWikiUser's violation of 1RV, that's fine. What is NOT ok is Admin K violating 1RV on other occasions and pride himself with "I can't tolerate the wiki having incorrect content, I don't care if we don't have consensus yet, I am going to change it back to the right version", when he bans other cases of 1RV violations (that are not related). I'm using a semi-fictional example from before 1RV was actually a policy on this wiki. If you fail to see the similarities in your situations, let me know and I'll find a different approach of explaining the issue. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 22:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::I see the similarity, but not the same level of dire need. I added it on as an afterthought. "Ban reason? NPA. Additional notes? Being an asshat." Not the other way around. If I break policy, I expect to be banned for it. If the sysop decides to tack on asshattery as an additional crime, that's his right. But I didn't ban Felix for general asshattery. It's sort of like when you get pulled over for speeding but the cop finds you without a seatbelt. He can still give you a ticket for speeding, regardless of the seatbelt. He can also penalize for the lack of seatbelt. He doesn't just nail you for the lack of seatbelt. -Auron 22:35, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::Yeah I agree the level of dire need differs (plus I didn't make it an "added note" situation). Well the lack of seatbelt itself is a nail-able offense though. So the cop pulls me over for speeding, but I do get double-ticketed for having two offenses. On the other hand, general asshattery is first of all not a established policy violation, and second of all kind of subjective if you want to ban based on severity of the asshattery (especially when you are on the receiving side of it). So, a better analogy would be a cop pulls me over for speeding, and find that I don't cut my nails and they are dirty and gross and I eat with it. It's a bad thing, but it's not against the law. The cop should only give me a ticket for speeding, not for my nails (and that cop doesn't cut his fingernails himself, though that is separate and unrelated to my nails). Thus unless we make general asshattery unilaterally ban-worthy, I think it is quite inappropriate for one person who generally enjoys being an ass to ban someone else for being an ass (taking into account that their being asses are completely unrelated). You are free to point out that he is being an ass, but the way you put it in the ban reason make it reads like "general asshattery" is unacceptable on this wiki (that it is ban-worthy even if he didn't commit NPA violation), which so far isn't the case. Basically, it didn't read like "btw, he is an ass". It read like "I am banning him for violating NPA, AND I am banning him for being an ass". This can, in an exaggerated scenario, prompt people to start throwing on other people's userpages (including yours). And while I don't like people being asses on the wiki, I don't want to start banning people for being asses. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 23:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::That would be pretty awesome. Ban templates for asshattery... it'd be a hoot to see them for skuld's reasons. . :::::::::::4srs though, I get your point. It wasn't meant to be an equal crime in this case, but IMO, it can be; if someone is enough of an ass, they should be blockable, even without by-the-letter violations. Most cases, this one included, are just minor displays of asshattery, but something along the lines of Raptors (or some of Grinsh's posts/attitudes) could be blocked just for being a disruption to the wiki. -Auron 23:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::::Yeah, a serious case of major asshattery can be, and had been cause of a ban before (I forgot if I was the one who made the ban, or if another admin banned and I simply agreed it was bannable). I see those as extreme exceptional cases though, and when that happens the ban really should come from someone not on the receiving end of the asshattery, just to reduce the potential drama (and one can argue if it doesn't catch any other admin's attention, it's not major/serious enough; or you can bring it to other admins' attention if you want to be doubly sure). -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 00:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC) On a lighter note... I was playing a game of five card draw poker with a bunch of logicians. By the time we had finished bidding and were just about to reveal our cards, I was pretty confident I would win of the four of us remaining. I had three nines, some face card (I can't remember what suit or even whether it was a jack, queen, or king) and a four. (Or was it a five? I can't remember.) I was even more sure when two of my opponents laid down their cards. One had a pair of fours and a pair of sevens, the other had a pair of twos and a pair of eights. My third opponent, however, laid down his five cards face down in a row. He said, "I have a straight, and the cards are, from lowest to highest: a ten, a jack, a queen, a king, and an ace. I have at least one card of each of the four suits: clubs, spades, hearts, and diamonds. I am fairly certain that this is the winning hand, but I'm feeling generous today, and I will give a third of the pot to whoever can determine which suit I have two cards of. Now I know you can't figure it out without some clues. Here they are: 1. The king is next to at least one diamond. 2. The queen is next to exactly one heart. 3. The jack is next to at least one spade, but is not next to any hearts. 4. The ten is next to at least one club. 5. The ace does not border any black cards, nor does it border any diamonds. 6. My two cards of the same suit are not next to each other. 7. Of the ten possible pairings of cards, only one pair, when removed, leaves three cards in ascending order from left to right. 8. My ace is not the card on the far left." There was a minute's silence. One of the other logicians said, "I give up! There's no way to figure that out!" The other agreed. But I didn't. I had just figured out which suit he had two of. Which suit is it? Have fun. [[user:Defiant Elements|*Defiant Elements*']] [[user talk:Defiant Elements|+talk'']] 03:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC) :It is worth noting that if you put your cards in facedown, you've just folded, so it doesn't really matter anymore what hand he had, as he's not getting the pot to share it with anyone. - 07:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC) ::Wtfx. Go find your own logic puzzles. ::Clubs. (I got king clubs, jack diamonds, queen spades, ten hearts, ace clubs). -Auron 08:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC) :::I'm finding a lack of information on this. (Been staring at it for a while now) By putting Auron's listed combo to the test... Everything pans out accept for the suite of the King. What is to say that king is not a spade? (As the hidden comment comments on the 1 face card that you possessed in your hand.) Either way, without more knowledge, multiple combinations can be true with the information given. My combo I came up with was (10 of diamonds, king of clubs, queen of diamonds, jack of hearts, ace of spades.) -- [[User:Isk8|'''''I~sk8]] (T/ 08:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)